As a follow up: universal maternity leave and free childcare are no panacea for maternal woes. These things do make it easier to be a mother, but they don’t fully allow women to chose how they return to work, or allow mothers to be equal to fathers.
Here in Austria The societal norm is for mothers to be home with their baby for 1-2 years while their partner works full time. „Free“ kindergarten starts at age one in Vienna and age 2 elsewhere so there are nearly no offers for childcare under age one. At least nothing affordable or public. And, as you can imagine, babies ( and fathers) get very used to mom doing everything - a norm that’s hard to shake even years after maternity leave ends.
Yes! Long maternity leave that’s not shareable with other members of your community can actually make things worse in the long term. I like the Swedish model where you can share your leave with others! But I love that you guys have guaranteed part time work and your job is held.
I loved this conversation! Elena, I had exactly the same experience becoming a mom: years of ambition and earning accolades, led me to believe motherhood would be a breeze only to realize I worked tirelessly only to be rewarded with no crying. The absence of any gold star, or promotion was utterly depressing!
As an aside, I wanted to add a bit about maternity leave here in Austria, since I think it is done well here and has even more than to help mothers than what you mentioned. Let me just say, despite everything Austria does to help morhers , society needs even more to achieve true equality!! I think the only way to
Achieve equality would be to mandate fathers to take an equal amount of paternity leave as their spouses- and to make their spouses go back to work full time. Too often in Austria, fathers take a month of paternity leave while their partner is also out and they learn nothing g because the mom keeps mining 24/7. or, the father goes on leave and the mom goes back to work part time, meaning she continues to do the lion’s share of work. Of course, such strict mandates would be a nightmare- free choice and all!
Onto Austria: in Austria all employees ( regardless of their employer) have a right to parental leave. It is 100% part of society, ingrained into the constitution and is not debated at all by any party. Self employed people also have a right to leave but it’s a bit complicated, so I’ll focus on employees here.
There are 2 types of maternity leave - for lack of translation into English. „Mutterschutz „ which is mandatory, and starts typically at 36 weeks gestation until 8 weeks after birth . This Mutterschutz also called Schutzfrist is at full pay, it’s like a medical leave - it starts earlier if there’s medical need for bedrest etc. it’s basically a protected medical leave to help mothers prepare for, and recover from birth. And remember, we have a social healthcare system so going to the hospital costs nothing out of pocket.
„Karenz „ is parental leave that starts after the 8 weeks. Karenz can be taken by either parent, and, if taken by only one parent the maximum length is 22 months. It’s possible to split the Karenz as well in many ways, for example 12 months by the mother and 2 by the father. Karenz can be up to 24 months if split by both parents.
Pay during Karenz varies. The shorter the leave the more money you get per day from the government. If taking 1 year (which is considered short here), it’s around 80% of the former pay after tax for many women. Plus, you get „Kindergeld“- child money
Each month. In short, this means families suffer little financial hardship during their parental leave. Keep in mind most salaries in Austria would be considered low by Bay Area standards!
If you’ve worked for the same company 2 years before going on Karenz you have a right to request „elternteilzeit“- parental part time. Elternteilzeit means your job is protected until your youngest is 7 years old. The company has to grant it unless they can prove it would be impossible to do so. So, you can request to work part time, from 7:30-12:30 every day so you work while your kids are at kindergarten. This is very common and means most mothers work part time, usually between 20-30 hours a week.
Kindergarten is covered by taxes until 12 each day, but we do pay for lunch, craft materials and outings. So it’s not completely „free“. We do need to pay extra for afternoon care, which is why most mothers chose to work part time in the morning.
Because everyone is entitled to maternity leave, there is no shortage of mama and baby activities ranging from yoga, fitness and baby drum circles.plus there’s always plenty of other moms available for a morning walk- again, maternity leave isn’t a rare occurrence, so it’s not as lonely as you described !
Fathers also can request the „Papa Monat“ papa month, where they are not paid, but they are granted leave. It’s not the most popular option because there is no job protection.
So In Sum, being a mom here is certainly far better than in the states but equal pay and equal opportunity isn’t here yet. Fathers need to take even more time to be with their children and employers must believe that both men and women have an equal chance of leaving for parental leave if woman are to have a fair chance in the workplace.
Gosh it sounds like a dream compared to what we get here! But yeah, I believe you when you say it’s still hard - and unequal. I actually found maternity leave to be incredibly isolating, and I’m not sure that having more mom and baby yoga would solve that? As I’ve said many times, I think going back to community models of living and child rearing would make a huge difference for mothers. But then you have to deal with living with other people 😆
I second the things Jennifer Schmidt wrote, it is similar to the situation in Sweden, were I live. However, I wanted to comment on another thing you spoke of: that people around you didn't praise your effort in motherhood. It was the opposite for me, especially when my children were newborns. If I walked with them outside, people would smile radiantly at the baby and me. Strangers looked like they truly loved us. Of course it was mainly the baby they smiled at, but I felt very validated, praised and approved of, very welcome in public spaces.
I have never lived in the USA, so I don't know for sure, but maybe that is a cultural difference? On the other hand, I suspect that Americans smile more in general- a kind of sullen neutrality is the most common attitude swedes show in public. Eye contact and a large smile is an unusual compliment!
My experience is that many Americans are very grumpy and intolerant of children. Not all, but many. It’s our culture of rugged individualism. Also I think there is a big difference between people smiling at your baby and feeling valued and rewarded for your mothering work. I was just reading a paper on how “mattering” in the context of motherhood is about more than feeling needed by your children. You must also feel valued by society. And unfortunately that’s not the case for most American SAHMs.
This podcast also struck a chord with me, as I was an ambitious and somewhat successful artist when my children were born. I never quite worked it out, but I do remember thinking that my career as an artist was not as important as being with my young children. Once out of the loop, it was hard to get back in. Most professional artists from my generation (I have grandkids), opted out of children, but there were some that managed successful careers if they lived in NYC.
The mother who works full time ends up spending precious time looking for the perfect “help”, and then the rest of her leisure time negotiating with the Mom substitutes who are unreliable at best.
So when the day care, nanny, preschool, grandparents, aunties, maid, housekeeper, the teenager next door flake out, Mama has to finally accept that the hours she wasted calling and texting setting up the “help” would be better invested into her relationships with her children.
When you invest your time in your children and clean your own home, all of that effort to find mom substitutes melts into the joy of caring for your own home and children, which is a full time job.
And yes, if you breastfeed and wash cloth diapers, you can easily live on one income if you do not have to pay for the mom substitutes.
I believe you will both realize eventually that being highly distracted by paid work during pregnancy and the newborn window needlessly clutters up your life and marriage.
Every mom has to figure this out for themselves though.
Good luck figuring it out.
The greatest work of ART that a mom creates is her child.
I am an actor and had to experience a nervous breakdown in order to shake me up enough to focus on my five babies for 25 years.
It’s great that this was your experience and that you have found happiness in home and family but it’s not every woman’s experience. I would be a horrible stay at home mother. My children and I are both happier when I have outside help. And as I have mentioned many, many times on this Substack - that would have been the norm for 95% of human history.
As a follow up: universal maternity leave and free childcare are no panacea for maternal woes. These things do make it easier to be a mother, but they don’t fully allow women to chose how they return to work, or allow mothers to be equal to fathers.
Here in Austria The societal norm is for mothers to be home with their baby for 1-2 years while their partner works full time. „Free“ kindergarten starts at age one in Vienna and age 2 elsewhere so there are nearly no offers for childcare under age one. At least nothing affordable or public. And, as you can imagine, babies ( and fathers) get very used to mom doing everything - a norm that’s hard to shake even years after maternity leave ends.
Yes! Long maternity leave that’s not shareable with other members of your community can actually make things worse in the long term. I like the Swedish model where you can share your leave with others! But I love that you guys have guaranteed part time work and your job is held.
I loved this conversation! Elena, I had exactly the same experience becoming a mom: years of ambition and earning accolades, led me to believe motherhood would be a breeze only to realize I worked tirelessly only to be rewarded with no crying. The absence of any gold star, or promotion was utterly depressing!
As an aside, I wanted to add a bit about maternity leave here in Austria, since I think it is done well here and has even more than to help mothers than what you mentioned. Let me just say, despite everything Austria does to help morhers , society needs even more to achieve true equality!! I think the only way to
Achieve equality would be to mandate fathers to take an equal amount of paternity leave as their spouses- and to make their spouses go back to work full time. Too often in Austria, fathers take a month of paternity leave while their partner is also out and they learn nothing g because the mom keeps mining 24/7. or, the father goes on leave and the mom goes back to work part time, meaning she continues to do the lion’s share of work. Of course, such strict mandates would be a nightmare- free choice and all!
Onto Austria: in Austria all employees ( regardless of their employer) have a right to parental leave. It is 100% part of society, ingrained into the constitution and is not debated at all by any party. Self employed people also have a right to leave but it’s a bit complicated, so I’ll focus on employees here.
There are 2 types of maternity leave - for lack of translation into English. „Mutterschutz „ which is mandatory, and starts typically at 36 weeks gestation until 8 weeks after birth . This Mutterschutz also called Schutzfrist is at full pay, it’s like a medical leave - it starts earlier if there’s medical need for bedrest etc. it’s basically a protected medical leave to help mothers prepare for, and recover from birth. And remember, we have a social healthcare system so going to the hospital costs nothing out of pocket.
„Karenz „ is parental leave that starts after the 8 weeks. Karenz can be taken by either parent, and, if taken by only one parent the maximum length is 22 months. It’s possible to split the Karenz as well in many ways, for example 12 months by the mother and 2 by the father. Karenz can be up to 24 months if split by both parents.
Pay during Karenz varies. The shorter the leave the more money you get per day from the government. If taking 1 year (which is considered short here), it’s around 80% of the former pay after tax for many women. Plus, you get „Kindergeld“- child money
Each month. In short, this means families suffer little financial hardship during their parental leave. Keep in mind most salaries in Austria would be considered low by Bay Area standards!
If you’ve worked for the same company 2 years before going on Karenz you have a right to request „elternteilzeit“- parental part time. Elternteilzeit means your job is protected until your youngest is 7 years old. The company has to grant it unless they can prove it would be impossible to do so. So, you can request to work part time, from 7:30-12:30 every day so you work while your kids are at kindergarten. This is very common and means most mothers work part time, usually between 20-30 hours a week.
Kindergarten is covered by taxes until 12 each day, but we do pay for lunch, craft materials and outings. So it’s not completely „free“. We do need to pay extra for afternoon care, which is why most mothers chose to work part time in the morning.
Because everyone is entitled to maternity leave, there is no shortage of mama and baby activities ranging from yoga, fitness and baby drum circles.plus there’s always plenty of other moms available for a morning walk- again, maternity leave isn’t a rare occurrence, so it’s not as lonely as you described !
Fathers also can request the „Papa Monat“ papa month, where they are not paid, but they are granted leave. It’s not the most popular option because there is no job protection.
So In Sum, being a mom here is certainly far better than in the states but equal pay and equal opportunity isn’t here yet. Fathers need to take even more time to be with their children and employers must believe that both men and women have an equal chance of leaving for parental leave if woman are to have a fair chance in the workplace.
Gosh it sounds like a dream compared to what we get here! But yeah, I believe you when you say it’s still hard - and unequal. I actually found maternity leave to be incredibly isolating, and I’m not sure that having more mom and baby yoga would solve that? As I’ve said many times, I think going back to community models of living and child rearing would make a huge difference for mothers. But then you have to deal with living with other people 😆
I second the things Jennifer Schmidt wrote, it is similar to the situation in Sweden, were I live. However, I wanted to comment on another thing you spoke of: that people around you didn't praise your effort in motherhood. It was the opposite for me, especially when my children were newborns. If I walked with them outside, people would smile radiantly at the baby and me. Strangers looked like they truly loved us. Of course it was mainly the baby they smiled at, but I felt very validated, praised and approved of, very welcome in public spaces.
I have never lived in the USA, so I don't know for sure, but maybe that is a cultural difference? On the other hand, I suspect that Americans smile more in general- a kind of sullen neutrality is the most common attitude swedes show in public. Eye contact and a large smile is an unusual compliment!
My experience is that many Americans are very grumpy and intolerant of children. Not all, but many. It’s our culture of rugged individualism. Also I think there is a big difference between people smiling at your baby and feeling valued and rewarded for your mothering work. I was just reading a paper on how “mattering” in the context of motherhood is about more than feeling needed by your children. You must also feel valued by society. And unfortunately that’s not the case for most American SAHMs.
Yes to discussing no children allowed weddings!! So glad to hear you address that here
This podcast also struck a chord with me, as I was an ambitious and somewhat successful artist when my children were born. I never quite worked it out, but I do remember thinking that my career as an artist was not as important as being with my young children. Once out of the loop, it was hard to get back in. Most professional artists from my generation (I have grandkids), opted out of children, but there were some that managed successful careers if they lived in NYC.
I am listening right now…
Shared on my Stack here 🌎
Marxist Moms want their cake and to eat it too…
https://open.substack.com/pub/healthyfamilies/p/on-ambition-and-motherhood-with-stefanie?r=p6qrn&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Fascinating conversation.
The mother who works full time ends up spending precious time looking for the perfect “help”, and then the rest of her leisure time negotiating with the Mom substitutes who are unreliable at best.
So when the day care, nanny, preschool, grandparents, aunties, maid, housekeeper, the teenager next door flake out, Mama has to finally accept that the hours she wasted calling and texting setting up the “help” would be better invested into her relationships with her children.
When you invest your time in your children and clean your own home, all of that effort to find mom substitutes melts into the joy of caring for your own home and children, which is a full time job.
And yes, if you breastfeed and wash cloth diapers, you can easily live on one income if you do not have to pay for the mom substitutes.
I believe you will both realize eventually that being highly distracted by paid work during pregnancy and the newborn window needlessly clutters up your life and marriage.
Every mom has to figure this out for themselves though.
Good luck figuring it out.
The greatest work of ART that a mom creates is her child.
I am an actor and had to experience a nervous breakdown in order to shake me up enough to focus on my five babies for 25 years.
https://healthyfamilies.substack.com/p/teaching-children-to-work?utm_source=publication-search
It’s great that this was your experience and that you have found happiness in home and family but it’s not every woman’s experience. I would be a horrible stay at home mother. My children and I are both happier when I have outside help. And as I have mentioned many, many times on this Substack - that would have been the norm for 95% of human history.