Loved your honesty in the podcast Elena, very relatable ‘yes I know, but how!?’ and it meant we heard different perspectives and information than I’ve heard from both you or all the other podcasts I’ve listened to with Michaeleen.
This is great! It made me realise how well our village/school set up is. We moved to a rural area a couple of years ago and my 3 year old will start school in September and it’s a small school with year groups mixed (he’s at their preschool now). When I tell our ‘city’ friends they are like ohh that’s weird. But all the kids play together. I see them at the park sort out conflicts between each other. Listening to this makes me realise how natural it is for them all to sort it out through play.
It wasn’t planned but we aren’t near any close towns and so all the villages rely on these smaller schools and it means the community has to come together.
Re: “gentle parenting,” I just want to share a different perspective, which is that what I personally got from that world was how to say, “I won’t let you do that” in a calm, unruffled way, along with practical advice for what interventions I could do to actually follow through on not letting them do X thing.
Janet Lansbury (who doesn’t use the term “gentle parenting” but who is also often cited as a big “gentle parenting expert” when folks are criticizing the concept) is the writer/podcaster I learned this from. It was very freeing for me personally to realize I didn’t need to (and shouldn’t) erase my own needs, preferences, and good judgment in the presence of young children.
My message here is not “in defense of” gentle parenting — but more a larger point about whether perceived differences or pressures around parenting are really real.
I do get it when people criticize the popular understanding of gentle parenting, which is something like, “spew verbal diarrhea in a fake sympathetic tone about how much you understand their feelings” 😅 But at least my own experience has been, gentle parenting has taught me how to assume my proper adult role with kids, which includes lots of very real boundary setting. I didn’t know how to do that previously, because just like everyone else around me who grew up in a WEIRD (western, etc.) environment, I am one of the many who lost those skills in a generation or two.
To be honest, I wonder if there’s room for more unity here, bc what I see is:
—lots of people (including people who resonate with Hunt, Gather, Parent; people who like “gentle parenting”; people who favor other “alternative” approaches) share a deeply felt intuition that something is off in the way we are parenting in WEIRD cultures, like “surely it shouldn’t be this hard”
—folks who feel this way might be trying to seek tools to help them because they’ve lost generational knowledge
—some people find tools that they then misapply, bc they don’t know any better and they’ve not learned to trust their intuition more when “the tool” is not really working for them
—ideas are tools, and different “tools” feel better in different people’s proverbial hands. As for the question of “which ideas will help me actually figure out what to do differently” idk I’ve gotten ideas that were helpful from a variety of sources.
I don’t think “gentle parenting” is really at odds with free range parenting, or TEAM-based parenting, or Hunter gatherer parenting, or lots of other ideas. I would like to think that all of the parents of modern WEIRD cultures who are looking for a way to struggle less and live better, to treat both ourselves and our children and our communities as people instead of machines or logic machines or whatever, might all be a secretly united front who have more in common than not.
I love the idea of a lot of Michaeleen's advice to you for older children *with* the ability to emotionally regulate themselves (these skills typically don't begin emerging until around age 5 with still much scaffolding and caregiver support required)...
Though overall, the conversation made me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Ultimately, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of a child's needs within this conversation and a fundamental lack of respect and value for normal developmental, psychology based growth and development around emotional needs and capabilities.
A fundamental aspect of the parent-child relationship is children's *need for connection* with their caregivers. There has been a lot of research on secure attachment and meeting a child's developmentally appropriate need for emotional connection and closeness to caregivers....
In fact, THIS, is the fundamental idea behind alloparents... We adapted as species to attract the attention/connection/closeness of others. It is a need for connection and caregiving we have, that is often only able to be expressed through BEHAVIOR.
Most 0-5 year olds, and older if they've not had adequate emotional regulation scaffolding from caregivers, are not able to recognise in a verbal way - "Hmm I've not gotten much attention from my parent today, I want to connect with her cuz that makes me feel safe, maybe I should tell her this and ask her for some one-to-one time" Hell adults in romantic partnerships often can't do this effectively!
Case in point: we need to stop expecting children to act like adults, when we've not given them the developmentally appropriate support, modeling, connection, co-regulation needed and required for them to LEARN how to regulate their emotions, recognise their internally-experienced bodily cues and then calmly, regulated-ly communicate that to their caregiver.
And so in this sense, when a person understand's that a child's form of communication is THROUGH their behavior, then there really is no such thing as 'misbehavior'. What someone might call misbehavior is missing the fundamental, underlying NEED for something that a child might have.... in terms of a 5 year old - it might still be the NEED for connection from his mom while she is working in the other room....
What makes me super uncomfortable with the convo and advice you got - is that it is a comparison between a single child/care giver and two kids and 1 caregiver.... I think your instinct of what your children need is spot on and Michaeleen steers you away from this, missing the fundamental, underlying need your children could be trying to express to you, to go on and IMO offer a bit of 'blame the victim'-esque advice, comparing two incomparable situations and not really giving advice on how to actually investigate and understand what need your kids are trying to get you to meet for them....
Follow my logic...
When Michaeleen is cooking with Rosy, this is absolutely filling Rosy's need for undivided connection and closeness from her caregiver.
When you are cooking with two children - your instinct IMO is correct - your child is likely trying to get your undivided connection and will act in such a way to try and get your attention that his needs have not been met in this instance. This is a need they are trying their best to communicate to you. Not just misbehaving cuz they feel like pissing you off with pancakes today. 'Sending them away' just further tells them you are not seeing their underlying need and punishes them, for just trying their best to find a way to communicate they want some one-to-one attention and connection from you.
To me, from the examples you shared in the podcast, it sounds like your son is trying hard to get you to see that he needs more one on one connection time with you.
In terms of you working in peace while watching over them, it could be a simple swap such as, BEFORE you start working, you somehow spend special time with each of them one on one. Son gets 10 minutes of undivided, child-led play and interaction from you, while your husband has daughter and then your swap and do daughter. THEN try to work - maybe his connection cup will be filled and he is less likely to then 'misbehave' (i.e. try to get his need for attention and connection attuned to) while you work..
I recommend a few resources for people who resonate with above:
Books:
Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges https://a.co/d/7YrM3w1
The Yes Brain: How to Cultivate Courage, Curiosity, and Resilience in Your Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson
IMO this book does a phenomenal job at getting to some of the core issues around hunt-gather-parent and evolutionary approach to parenting like freedom to roam and open-ended play (these are fundamental needs already established within child psychology FYI Michaeleen) etc, but does so in a much more nuanced way that appreciates and validates the emotional connection and needs of the child - not simply dismissing or invalidating them.
Phenomenal educator and resource on child attachment and building secure attachment, emotional connection and closeness with children.. through the lens of Infant-Child mental health
P.S. 'co-regulation' is not gentle parenting - in my experience, the more non-verbal the better, when my child is 'misbehaving' - I cannot shame or blame the emotional experience out of her body by separating myself from her or leaving her alone or punishing her, this just further confuses her and IMO build intergenerational shame around normal emotional experiences..... I can with ZERO words be near her, touch her or hold her if allowed and cued that she wants that, and stay calm, regulated myself and take deep breaths. Within seconds, she is calming down with me. And suddenly, in an instance she'll pop up and be ready to get back to playing....
I really loved this conversation! Thank you for producing this content. If I could offer a suggestion though - the audio would be much easier to listen to if you could let the guest speak uninterrupted. I do the same thing of speaking at the same time as another person to show I’m listening and agree, but it doesn’t translate to audio recording. It’s hard for me to hear her over your voice agreeing. I also think she may have spoken more if you’d been more silent - silence can prompt people to continue a thought they may not have otherwise. Please keep doing these interviews!
Really loved this. Such an important (and interesting) conversation.
We moved to Greece four years ago for similar reasons: chasing a slightly more primitive and community-driven childhood for our (then) 4 and 1-year old. Hoping your Basque leap-of-faith pays off similarity.
Presently writing short essays on the intersection of parenting and math/science/ethics…
Would love your feedback if any of the context resonates.
When your two favourite parenting writers collaborate ❤️🫡🙌
❤️
Loved your honesty in the podcast Elena, very relatable ‘yes I know, but how!?’ and it meant we heard different perspectives and information than I’ve heard from both you or all the other podcasts I’ve listened to with Michaeleen.
This is great! It made me realise how well our village/school set up is. We moved to a rural area a couple of years ago and my 3 year old will start school in September and it’s a small school with year groups mixed (he’s at their preschool now). When I tell our ‘city’ friends they are like ohh that’s weird. But all the kids play together. I see them at the park sort out conflicts between each other. Listening to this makes me realise how natural it is for them all to sort it out through play.
Amazing! How did you find that? That’s what we are all looking for I think
It wasn’t planned but we aren’t near any close towns and so all the villages rely on these smaller schools and it means the community has to come together.
This was a lovely conversation!
I still think working on a computer (as someone who is on Zoom all day) is different than other kids of work 🫠
Yes I have to agree. But I do also think she is right that children can learn to be patient and entertain themselves if you train them. Both are true.
Loved this conversation!
Re: “gentle parenting,” I just want to share a different perspective, which is that what I personally got from that world was how to say, “I won’t let you do that” in a calm, unruffled way, along with practical advice for what interventions I could do to actually follow through on not letting them do X thing.
Janet Lansbury (who doesn’t use the term “gentle parenting” but who is also often cited as a big “gentle parenting expert” when folks are criticizing the concept) is the writer/podcaster I learned this from. It was very freeing for me personally to realize I didn’t need to (and shouldn’t) erase my own needs, preferences, and good judgment in the presence of young children.
My message here is not “in defense of” gentle parenting — but more a larger point about whether perceived differences or pressures around parenting are really real.
I do get it when people criticize the popular understanding of gentle parenting, which is something like, “spew verbal diarrhea in a fake sympathetic tone about how much you understand their feelings” 😅 But at least my own experience has been, gentle parenting has taught me how to assume my proper adult role with kids, which includes lots of very real boundary setting. I didn’t know how to do that previously, because just like everyone else around me who grew up in a WEIRD (western, etc.) environment, I am one of the many who lost those skills in a generation or two.
To be honest, I wonder if there’s room for more unity here, bc what I see is:
—lots of people (including people who resonate with Hunt, Gather, Parent; people who like “gentle parenting”; people who favor other “alternative” approaches) share a deeply felt intuition that something is off in the way we are parenting in WEIRD cultures, like “surely it shouldn’t be this hard”
—folks who feel this way might be trying to seek tools to help them because they’ve lost generational knowledge
—some people find tools that they then misapply, bc they don’t know any better and they’ve not learned to trust their intuition more when “the tool” is not really working for them
—ideas are tools, and different “tools” feel better in different people’s proverbial hands. As for the question of “which ideas will help me actually figure out what to do differently” idk I’ve gotten ideas that were helpful from a variety of sources.
I don’t think “gentle parenting” is really at odds with free range parenting, or TEAM-based parenting, or Hunter gatherer parenting, or lots of other ideas. I would like to think that all of the parents of modern WEIRD cultures who are looking for a way to struggle less and live better, to treat both ourselves and our children and our communities as people instead of machines or logic machines or whatever, might all be a secretly united front who have more in common than not.
I love the idea of a lot of Michaeleen's advice to you for older children *with* the ability to emotionally regulate themselves (these skills typically don't begin emerging until around age 5 with still much scaffolding and caregiver support required)...
Though overall, the conversation made me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Ultimately, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of a child's needs within this conversation and a fundamental lack of respect and value for normal developmental, psychology based growth and development around emotional needs and capabilities.
A fundamental aspect of the parent-child relationship is children's *need for connection* with their caregivers. There has been a lot of research on secure attachment and meeting a child's developmentally appropriate need for emotional connection and closeness to caregivers....
In fact, THIS, is the fundamental idea behind alloparents... We adapted as species to attract the attention/connection/closeness of others. It is a need for connection and caregiving we have, that is often only able to be expressed through BEHAVIOR.
Most 0-5 year olds, and older if they've not had adequate emotional regulation scaffolding from caregivers, are not able to recognise in a verbal way - "Hmm I've not gotten much attention from my parent today, I want to connect with her cuz that makes me feel safe, maybe I should tell her this and ask her for some one-to-one time" Hell adults in romantic partnerships often can't do this effectively!
Case in point: we need to stop expecting children to act like adults, when we've not given them the developmentally appropriate support, modeling, connection, co-regulation needed and required for them to LEARN how to regulate their emotions, recognise their internally-experienced bodily cues and then calmly, regulated-ly communicate that to their caregiver.
And so in this sense, when a person understand's that a child's form of communication is THROUGH their behavior, then there really is no such thing as 'misbehavior'. What someone might call misbehavior is missing the fundamental, underlying NEED for something that a child might have.... in terms of a 5 year old - it might still be the NEED for connection from his mom while she is working in the other room....
What makes me super uncomfortable with the convo and advice you got - is that it is a comparison between a single child/care giver and two kids and 1 caregiver.... I think your instinct of what your children need is spot on and Michaeleen steers you away from this, missing the fundamental, underlying need your children could be trying to express to you, to go on and IMO offer a bit of 'blame the victim'-esque advice, comparing two incomparable situations and not really giving advice on how to actually investigate and understand what need your kids are trying to get you to meet for them....
Follow my logic...
When Michaeleen is cooking with Rosy, this is absolutely filling Rosy's need for undivided connection and closeness from her caregiver.
When you are cooking with two children - your instinct IMO is correct - your child is likely trying to get your undivided connection and will act in such a way to try and get your attention that his needs have not been met in this instance. This is a need they are trying their best to communicate to you. Not just misbehaving cuz they feel like pissing you off with pancakes today. 'Sending them away' just further tells them you are not seeing their underlying need and punishes them, for just trying their best to find a way to communicate they want some one-to-one attention and connection from you.
To me, from the examples you shared in the podcast, it sounds like your son is trying hard to get you to see that he needs more one on one connection time with you.
In terms of you working in peace while watching over them, it could be a simple swap such as, BEFORE you start working, you somehow spend special time with each of them one on one. Son gets 10 minutes of undivided, child-led play and interaction from you, while your husband has daughter and then your swap and do daughter. THEN try to work - maybe his connection cup will be filled and he is less likely to then 'misbehave' (i.e. try to get his need for attention and connection attuned to) while you work..
I recommend a few resources for people who resonate with above:
Books:
Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges https://a.co/d/7YrM3w1
The Yes Brain: How to Cultivate Courage, Curiosity, and Resilience in Your Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson
IMO this book does a phenomenal job at getting to some of the core issues around hunt-gather-parent and evolutionary approach to parenting like freedom to roam and open-ended play (these are fundamental needs already established within child psychology FYI Michaeleen) etc, but does so in a much more nuanced way that appreciates and validates the emotional connection and needs of the child - not simply dismissing or invalidating them.
Phenomenal educator and resource on child attachment and building secure attachment, emotional connection and closeness with children.. through the lens of Infant-Child mental health
https://www.instagram.com/babiesandbrains/?hl=en
https://www.babiesandbrains.com/
For example - her current second post on the grid is 'A child's aggressive behavior (i.e. fighting) is just the tip of the iceberg...'
Hope this might help anyone out there who felt a bit lost and shamed following Michaeleen advice on this episode. <3
P.S. 'co-regulation' is not gentle parenting - in my experience, the more non-verbal the better, when my child is 'misbehaving' - I cannot shame or blame the emotional experience out of her body by separating myself from her or leaving her alone or punishing her, this just further confuses her and IMO build intergenerational shame around normal emotional experiences..... I can with ZERO words be near her, touch her or hold her if allowed and cued that she wants that, and stay calm, regulated myself and take deep breaths. Within seconds, she is calming down with me. And suddenly, in an instance she'll pop up and be ready to get back to playing....
I really loved this conversation! Thank you for producing this content. If I could offer a suggestion though - the audio would be much easier to listen to if you could let the guest speak uninterrupted. I do the same thing of speaking at the same time as another person to show I’m listening and agree, but it doesn’t translate to audio recording. It’s hard for me to hear her over your voice agreeing. I also think she may have spoken more if you’d been more silent - silence can prompt people to continue a thought they may not have otherwise. Please keep doing these interviews!
Really loved this. Such an important (and interesting) conversation.
We moved to Greece four years ago for similar reasons: chasing a slightly more primitive and community-driven childhood for our (then) 4 and 1-year old. Hoping your Basque leap-of-faith pays off similarity.
Presently writing short essays on the intersection of parenting and math/science/ethics…
Would love your feedback if any of the context resonates.
https://dimitrisstubos.substack.com/
This is a lot of how I was raised in big Catholic family culture